Asylum seeker policy, community detention, Nauru, East Timor, Regional Protection Framework, Kingsley's Chicken
Tuesday, 21 December 2010
Interview with Mark Parton, 2CC Canberra
Mark Parton: We’ve got the Minister for Immigration Chris Bowen on the line right now. Hello Mr Bowen.
Chris Bowen: Good morning Mark.
Parton: You find yourself in a pretty interesting position here don’t you, because it’s a catch-22: whichever way you respond to this crisis is going to be wrong in the eyes of some of those that are participating in the debate?
Bowen: Sure, that’s right. It’s a very polarised debate and there are very strong views if you like on the broad left and on the broad right and some of those views are at the extremes. Some people are saying we should have completely open borders and anybody who arrives should be assumed a refugee and we should just take them; there are others who say, you know, no matter what people’s claims are they should be put on a boat from whence they’ve come and they’re the sort of extreme views on each side and I want a more middle approach, doing it on a case-by-case, what works basis. There are going to be some people annoyed on both sides.
Parton: Your Government made the announcement a couple of months ago that women and children would not go into detention and since then the number of women and children coming by boat has skyrocketed. Was that a mistake?
Bowen: No, and I think you’ve got to be very careful with month-on-month figures Mark. What the figures you just referred to, and in the paper this morning are October’s figures, and of course this was an announcement made on the 18th of October; and if you look at the percentages, the percentage of people arriving – of children arriving as a percentage of the totals, they haven’t moved around at all really and they always go up and down from month-to-month but they haven’t moved around from the October to November period and you’ve also got to realise that it’s just not people, you know people don’t see an announcement and then say ‘Oh ok, we’ll go down and we’ll hop on a boat’. People are in the pipeline for people smugglers for months and months and months and it’s a big effort to get from Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran to Indonesia and then to Australia, and this is something which takes a long period of time so I don’t think we can assume that because an announcement’s made on the 18th of October and then October sees an increase in the number of children on a boat, not as a percentage of the number of people arriving, just in raw numbers, I don’t think you can assume there that there is a causal link.
Parton: You know, one of the discussion points that was raised last night is that so many of the people out there who are trying to do the right thing – refugees from countries in turmoil find themselves in these middle-countries before coming here are sitting in camps for years, long long periods of time and many of them are not ending up getting into their destination of choice like Australia and yet the ones that jump the queue, the ones that pay to get on the boat: essentially all they’ve got to do is get here within the vicinity and we’ll allow them to stay; and that’s what seems not fair to so many Australians, we’re rewarding people for queue jumping.
Bowen: Again, you’re right; there are very strong views on both sides of that argument. There are some people who put very much that argument; there are other people who say there is no effective queue, if you’re in a camp in Jordan or Africa or in Indonesia or Malaysia to be processed as a refugee by the UNHCR, it doesn’t guarantee a resettlement place anywhere. So – and there are legitimate points of view on this across the spectrum again. Again, we’re a signatory to the Refugee Convention: that means we agree not to send people back to countries where they’ll be in danger, and even if we weren’t a signatory to that Convention, the reality is of course that Australia is a civilised nation and wouldn’t do that.
Parton: But what do you do if it gets to the point where, let’s say our asylum policies push further to the left and let’s say that the doors become more open, and more and more refugees come our way. At some point you’ve got to say no, this isn’t going to work for us.
Bowen: I think Mark, what you’re doing is underlying some of the complexities here and I think you’re making the point that being appointed Immigration Minister is not generally the way to make yourself the most popular person in the country …
Parton: It’s a tough job.
Bowen: That’s right. Whatever you say is going to annoy people, because you’ve just got to call it as you see it, and the approach I’m taking is that you can’t just be harsher and harsher about it and think that that is going to be a deterrent. You know, we …
Parton: It was, it did work.
Bowen: No …
Parton: Under the Howard Government it did work.
Bowen: I don’t agree with that, but my point is …
Parton: Well the figures say that it did. The boats stopped coming.
Bowen: You’ve got to look at the international practice Mark, and look at when the number of asylum seekers coming to Australia fell, that was at exactly the same time that we saw what was the biggest remigration in world history, that was a million people moving from Pakistan back to Afghanistan because peace broke out in Afghanistan, and the situation in Afghanistan improved dramatically. Then in 2008, you saw the opposite, you saw Afghanistan fall into an abyss of violence and then you saw asylum seekers increase and of course you’re going to see that flow through to Australia to some degree. There’s 42 million displaced people around the world [inaudible] …
Parton: And so what the genuinely …
Bowen: … recognised, come to Australia.
Parton: So what you’re genuinely saying to me today is that the increase in asylum seekers coming to Australia has got nothing whatsoever to do with policies of the Gillard and Rudd Government?
Bowen: I’m saying that you’ve got to look at the international factors and the factors in the nations which are leading people to leave – leading people to leave for Canada, Australia or Europe.
Parton: But you’ve got to concede that when we were processing people at Nauru, it was a less viable option for people, a less attractive option.
Bowen: Why? Because if ninety per cent of people ended up in Australia and New Zealand anyway, why would you care if you’re processed in Nauru or Adelaide or Curtin or Christmas Island if you know that what you’re trying to do is to get to Australia and become a resident. Now that’s why, and I think this is where this conversation is leading, that’s why I think we do need an international solution because we have a regional and international problem and if you just have an offshore processing centre, that offshore processing centre in and of itself without a regional framework is not in my view a disincentive to come to Australia because you say ‘Ok, we’ll come to Christmas Island, in that case moving to Nauru, I’ll be in Nauru for a while and then I’ll get back to Australia’ …
Parton: Is it as much about the tone of the debate here, because it’s a very small world here now with the internet, and if we’re talking the talk and, you know, doing so in a way to spread forth on the net that it’s in theory going to stop people making the choice to jump here?
Bowen: Well I do think the tone of the debates important, I think it’s important that as a civilised nation that we deal with these issues in a mature and sensitive fashion, and that is to say from my point of view, we will fulfil our obligations under the Refugee Convention, we’ll do the right thing but by the way, if you’re not a genuine refugee, if you come here as an economic migrant then that is not the appropriate thing to do and you will be returned to the country from whence you’ve come and I think that it’s very important that, for example you talk about the internet spreading messages, it’s very important we’re clear we have a rigorous refugee assessment program, if you’re not a refugee, if you’re found not to be a refugee and for example, for people from Afghanistan the trend has been that about fifty per cent of people have been found to be genuine refugees and that fifty per cent have not and if you’re not then you won’t be accepted into Australia if you’ve come in that fashion, you’ve got to apply through the normal processes.
Parton: Christmas is four days away, what odds do you think one of your Christmas gifts will be another boat arrival?
Bowen: Oh look, the boats do arrive regularly, and of course you would hope that the recent event, if people were looking at it, they would say ‘Well, I might not take that risk’, but people do take that risk and what we do need is an international solution to remove that business model from the people smugglers and that’s what I’ve been focused on for the three or so months that I’ve been Immigration Minister.
Parton: We are out of time, thank you so much for making yourself available this morning. Before I go, I’ve just got to mention Kinsley Bar from Kingsley’s Chicken who we spoke to earlier in the day about, he’s been trying to get some workers here from the Philippines for the last 14 months or so since the fast food workers were moved from that list of the approved jobs for 457 visas and he just says he’s having no luck. He says he’s written letters to you and your department, open letters to newspapers and we’d appreciate it if you’d look into it.
Bowen: I’d be happy to, and if you could just get somebody in your – one of your producers to keep me the details I’d be happy to get somebody from my office to get in contact with him later in the day. We do have a very, sort of, robust skilled migration program, there’s lots of options for companies: there’s 457’s, I recently signed with the ACT Government a Territory Labour Market Agreement which outlines which occupations are in demand in the ACT; there’s also the General Skilled Migration program. So what we do need to do, I don’t want to take up too much of your time, but what we need to do is strike the balance between making it as flexible as possible for companies to import that labour but also ensure that there’s plenty of opportunities domestically for people who are willing to be trained and that there’s no disincentive for training people in Australia so it is a balancing act but we have made quite considerable changes so I’m happy to have somebody in my office talk to him and see if something which can sensibly be done.
Parton: Thanks for your time this morning.
Bowen: Nice talking to you.
See: Index of Speeches
URL: http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/cb/2010/cb156759.htm
Last update: Tuesday, 21 December 2010 at 16:05 AEST